Projects › Lower Manhattan › 201 East 17th Street
Completed project · Lower Manhattan, New York, NY
A bathroom whose scope was reviewed three times by a professional engineer acting for the building, and got more demanding each round. The most useful document on this page is not a photograph: it is a 29-point letter setting out exactly what a New York apartment bathroom is allowed to do.
Job record
- Location
- Gramercy, New York, NY 10003
- Building
- 201 East 17th Street
- Scope
- Full bathroom renovation, tub converted to a walk-in shower
- Review
- Professional engineer’s review, three rounds, April to June 2022
- Record
- Photographed before and after
- Filings
- LAA plumbing permit, electrical permit, sign-offs to management at completion
- Completed
- 2022
What was there before
These are the household’s own photographs, taken before anything was touched. They are worth looking at carefully, because almost every requirement in this project traces back to something visible in them.
A bathtub behind a curtain. No glass, no niche, no recess of any kind, so storage was surface-fixed shelving screwed to the wall. Square white tile in the tub surround and beige tile on the floor, both original. A sink on exposed legs with the branch pipework running away behind a wall that had not been opened in decades.
The tub is the single most consequential thing in these pictures. Replacing it with a shower is what forced a larger drain line, which forced a decision about the structural slab, which produced the raised shower floor described further down. The scope did not start out proposing that: it began as a tub replaced in kind, and changed halfway through the review.
Twenty-nine conditions, and the ten-foot rule
This building sends alteration scopes to a licensed professional engineer. The first review came back in April 2022 as twenty-nine numbered points. Several of them are worth knowing whether or not you live in a building that does this, because they are the rules everyone is working to whether they say so or not.
The one with a number in it is the most useful. Plumbing work can be done without an alteration permit provided a master plumber files an Ordinary Plumbing Work report with the Department of Buildings’ LAA unit, and provided the job replaces less than ten feet of waste, water or vent piping. Cross that ten-foot line and an LAA permit has to be filed instead. Separately, if any wall is removed, modified or created, or any suspended ceiling installed, an alteration-type permit is required regardless.
The rest sets the standard of the work. All original branch water, drain and vent piping removed and replaced back to the riser shut-off valves and stacks. Properly rated bronze ball valves and check valves at all distribution lines, with fire-rated access doors so they can be reached. Flexible copper tubing not permitted, solid copper only, fully supported and thoroughly insulated, and no plastic supply piping at all. Exposed insulation stripped and replaced with paper-faced preformed fiberglass before any finish goes on.
What the review would not let the scope get away with
Two points in that first letter are examples of a review doing the job a review exists to do.
Point ten notes that the scope clearly states branch lines are to be replaced, but that other line items say fixtures will be installed on existing rough-ins. Those two statements cannot both be fully true, and the ruling is that replacement of all branch pipes has to be performed. That is an internal contradiction in a document that had already been signed, caught by somebody reading it properly.
Point eleven deals with the niche and the recessed medicine cabinet, whose locations the scope had left to be determined. The review fills in the constraint: recesses can only be created on walls fully within the apartment, never on an exterior wall, a common wall or a hallway wall, never where they would disturb a plumbing line or a riser, fully waterproofed when they sit inside a shower, and always constructed so that the fire rating of the wall they are cut into is maintained. If you are planning a niche, that is the checklist.
The scope changed halfway, and the requirements changed with it
The original scope replaced the bathtub in kind: tub out, tub in. In the written response of May 2022 that changed to a tub-to-shower conversion, and the engineer re-reviewed on that basis a week later.
The new conditions followed immediately. Every new shower must have a waterproof pan. A licensed plumber must confirm that a two-inch drain line is available. Drain piping may not be replaced beyond the apartment, and the adjoining apartments must be protected from disruption. Waterproofing now has to run continuously from the bathroom floor through the shower and full height within the shower walls, and the lead pan must extend up and over the shower curb. A drawing showing the configuration of the shower floor had to be produced.
And then the condition that shapes what you can see in the photographs: increasing the size of the drain line must be achieved without channeling the structural slab, which, the letter notes, may require installation of a raised shower.
Why some showers have a step in them
A tub drain and a shower drain are not the same size. Converting one to the other usually means getting a larger drain line into a floor that was not built to take it, and in a concrete building there are only two ways to do that: cut a channel into the structural slab, or build the shower floor upward until the new drain fits above it.
Cutting the slab was refused. So the shower floor was built up and a step-in shower created, which MyHome confirmed in writing. The engineer then made one further demand, in a third review letter in June: the confirmation was not shown in the drawing, so the drawing had to be revised, and it had to show waterproofing at the concrete slab below the shower as well as the waterproofing inside the shower pan.
That third letter contains the single most useful detail in the whole file. The proposed drawing showed Laticrete 9235 running full height at the shower walls and Noble Seal beneath the bathroom floor, which is a perfectly normal pairing of two different products. The review insisted the drawing show that the two are directly connected to one another. Two good waterproofing systems that do not meet are a leak, and the place they fail is precisely the joint nobody drew.
What the crew did, in order
Submit the scope and wait for the engineer
The scope of work was dated 31 March 2022 and forwarded by the managing agent to a professional engineer. The review came back on 26 April as twenty-nine numbered conditions.
Answer every point in the same numbering
The response of 12 May addresses each of the twenty-nine in the same format, confirming them, and uses point two to change the scope from a tub replaced in kind to a tub-to-shower conversion. Point one is answered with a commitment to pull an LAA permit on the basis of the new scope.
Take the second review on the new scope
On 18 May the engineer re-reviewed. Points one and three through twenty-nine were accepted. Points two, seven and nine were reopened, because a shower is not a tub: waterproof pan, two-inch drain, no channeling of the slab, continuous waterproofing, lead pan over the curb, and a drawing of the shower floor.
Draw the shower floor and get it sent back
A shower detail was produced. The June review accepted that it showed waterproofing full height at the shower walls, and required two additions: that the drawing show the wall waterproofing directly connected to the floor waterproofing beneath it, and that it show the built-up, step-in shower floor that had been confirmed in writing but not drawn.
Strip out and replace every branch line
All original branch water, drain and vent piping removed and replaced back to the riser shut-off valves and stacks, in solid copper, fully supported and insulated, with bronze ball and check valves at the distribution lines and fire-rated access doors to reach them.
Build the shower floor upward
A waterproof pan, the floor built up to accept a two-inch drain without cutting the slab, and the lead pan carried up and over the curb.
Waterproof floor and walls as one system
Noble Seal beneath the bathroom floor, turned at least four inches up at the perimeter of each wall, and Laticrete 9235 full height within the shower, joined to one another rather than stopping short.
Have the rough-ins examined before anything is covered
The building’s engineer had to be given sufficient notice to examine all rough-ins, including branch pipes, valves, insulation and waterproofing, before any finishes were installed. No work at all until every required permit was posted on site.
Tile, glaze and fit out
Large-format grey tile through the room, small-format tile on the built-up shower floor, a sliding glass enclosure on an exposed track, stainless corner shelves, a vanity with an integrated basin in a black stone top, and a live-edge timber shelf above the toilet.
Forward the sign-offs
On completion, final sign-offs for each permit go to management, along with a copy of the plumbing report filed with the Department of Buildings.
Materials and finishes
Shower
| Element | Specification |
|---|---|
| Conversion | Bathtub removed and replaced with a walk-in shower |
| Floor | Built up rather than channeled into the slab, creating a step-in shower |
| Drain | 2 in drain line, confirmed available by a licensed plumber; no drain piping replaced beyond the apartment |
| Pan | Waterproof lead pan, carried up and over the shower curb |
| Enclosure | Sliding glass panels on an exposed steel track |
| Fittings | Fixed rain head and handshower with separate volume controls |
| Shelving | Stainless steel corner shelves |
Waterproofing
| Element | Specification |
|---|---|
| Beneath the floor | Noble Seal membrane, extended at least 4 in up each wall at the perimeter |
| Shower walls | Laticrete 9235, full height |
| Junction | Wall and floor systems required to be directly connected, and shown so on the drawing |
| Below the shower | Waterproofing at the concrete slab beneath the shower, in addition to within the pan |
Plumbing
| Element | Specification |
|---|---|
| Branch lines | All original branch water, drain and vent piping replaced back to the riser shut-off valves and stacks |
| Pipe | Solid copper only, fully supported and thoroughly insulated; no flexible copper, no plastic supply piping |
| Valves | Rated bronze ball valves and check valves at all distribution lines |
| Access | Fire-rated access doors to all valves |
| Insulation | Exposed insulation removed and replaced with paper-faced preformed fiberglass |
| Toilet | Existing rough-in retained for the lead bend and drain, inspected during replacement; supply line renewed |
Fittings and finishes
| Element | Specification |
|---|---|
| Wall and floor tile | Large-format grey porcelain through the room; small-format tile to the built-up shower floor |
| Vanity | White cabinet with a black stone top and an integrated basin |
| Faucet | Brushed nickel, deck mounted |
| Shelf | Live-edge timber shelf on brackets above the toilet |
| Niche and medicine cabinet | Framed only into walls fully within the apartment, fire rating maintained, fully waterproofed where within the shower |
Filings and conditions
| Element | Specification |
|---|---|
| Plumbing | LAA permit filed by a licensed plumber, on the basis of the tub-to-shower scope |
| Electrical | Permit obtained by a licensed electrician from the Department of Buildings |
| Inspection | All rough-ins examined by the building engineer before finishes |
| Firestopping | Required at all openings created or exposed through slabs and fire-rated assemblies |
| Risers | Not to be disturbed; probes opened to locate them before disturbing partitions |
| Ventilation | Not to be altered; no fan discharged into existing vents, no vent grills modified |
| Hazardous materials | All materials for demolition tested for asbestos and lead before being disturbed |
| Sign-off | Final sign-offs for each permit forwarded to management on completion |
Conditions are quoted from the three review letters prepared for the building by a professional engineer and from MyHome’s written response to them, all held in the job file. Materials are from the scope of work dated 31 March 2022 as revised.
The result
More MyHome projects in Manhattan
Questions this project answers
Do I need a permit to renovate a bathroom in NYC?
For the plumbing, it depends on how much pipe you replace. The engineering review on this job states the rule precisely: plumbing renovations can be performed without an alteration permit as long as a master plumber files an Ordinary Plumbing Work report with the Department of Buildings’ LAA unit, and only where the job replaces less than ten feet of waste, water or vent piping. Above that, a licensed plumber must file an LAA permit. Separately, if any wall is removed, modified or created, or a suspended ceiling installed, an alteration-type permit is required regardless of the plumbing. All electrical work needs a permit obtained by a licensed electrician. This job ended up pulling an LAA once the scope changed to a shower.
Why do some walk-in showers have a step up into them?
Usually because the drain could not be lowered. A shower needs a larger drain line than a bathtub, and in a concrete building you can either cut a channel into the structural slab to fit it or build the shower floor upward until it fits above the slab. On this job cutting the slab was expressly refused, and the review letter says so plainly: increasing the size of the drain line must be performed without channeling the structural slab, and this may require installation of a raised shower. So the floor was built up and a step-in shower created. If you are converting a tub to a shower in a concrete building, ask about the drain before you assume a flush threshold.
What is the most common place bathroom waterproofing fails?
The joint between two systems, and this project has the clearest statement of it. The shower drawing showed Laticrete 9235 running full height on the shower walls and Noble Seal beneath the bathroom floor. Both are sound products correctly specified. The engineer sent the drawing back anyway, requiring it to show that the wall waterproofing is directly connected to the floor waterproofing beneath it. Two good membranes that do not meet leave a gap exactly where water collects. When you review a waterproofing detail, look for the junction rather than the products.
Where am I allowed to put a recessed niche or medicine cabinet?
Only on walls that sit fully within your own apartment. The review here sets out the full constraint: recesses cannot be created on exterior walls, common walls or hallway walls; cannot be created where they would disturb any plumbing line or riser; must be fully waterproofed when they sit inside a shower; and must be constructed so the fire rating of the wall they are cut into is maintained. If the niche goes into a demising wall between two apartments, the fire rating has to be maintained there too. Confirm the wall before you design around the niche, because the location is not a finish decision.
What should I expect from a building engineer review of my renovation?
That it gets stricter, not looser, and that inconsistencies in your own paperwork will surface. This scope was reviewed three times between April and June 2022. The first review ran to twenty-nine numbered conditions and caught a contradiction in the signed scope, which said branch lines would be replaced in one place and that fixtures would go on existing rough-ins in another. The second review reopened three points because the scope had changed from a tub to a shower. The third sent back a drawing that was correct as far as it went but did not show how two waterproofing systems joined. Budget several weeks for this and write your scope so that it does not contradict itself, because somebody is going to read it line by line.
